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Submitted with permission of: Rob Thorpe and Lakes Entrance Secondary College. Interview with Rob Thorpe at LESC conducted by: Sara Bragge, Aaron Davis, Robbie Horan, Daniel Macklin and Lenny Smith on 17th November 2000.

My father was born at Lake Tyers in the early 1920s. He lived all his life in and around this area, and is buried at Lake Tyers. My father never moved out of his tribal area, which is the Gunai tribe. My mother came from another tribe from the other side of Melbourne. My grandmother on my mother's side was taken into domestic service in Melbourne. She was one of the Stolen Children.

My grandmother's family was the first Aboriginal family to live in Fitzroy, Aboriginal people were not allowed into the main part of Melbourne. They moved there during the depression so they had a pretty hard time. I was born at Yallourn, an electricity- producing town. We were the only Aboriginal family that lived in Yallourn. My father worked there for twenty odd years, he had a stable job, was a good solid worker and very much a family man. A lot of Aboriginal families didn't have the stability that we had, stability amongst the Aboriginals was rare. Dad was also a great footballer, and that was another reason he got on so well with everyone. He was a strong and respected man in the community, so I never missed out on anything. Unfortunately, this was not the way for a lot of Aboriginal families, they had it real tough. I had a lot of fun, played a lot of sport and was in a lot of clubs. I didn't have any problems, but I didn't see the broader picture of the things that were going on, that were affecting my people, racism being a big problem. I have three brothers, two older than I am one younger, three sisters one older and two younger than me. We are all adults now with children of our own. Coming from a large family we were always close, which has kept us in good stead. Even now we are still a strong Aboriginal family. I have had a really good family life, it is one of the things you do need. If you have got a good solid family behind you, you will go a long way. It is the one main thing you need in your life. A lot of the problems with Aboriginal people is that they haven't got that support, because their families have been broken up, and without it a lot of them have ended up on the rocks.

My education, went to form five, I don't know how I got that far, I wasn't really interested but I should have been. I know now I should have been using that time better. I was always out swinging on trees and wagging all the time when I should have been grabbing an education. My greatest influences were older Aboriginal people who had been through this process before me and told me to be careful. People like Bruce McGuiness, who was the first Aboriginal to graduate from University He was like my master - he taught me all about politics, both of the world and Aboriginal politics.

My mother and my sisters were probably the ones who influenced me the most. Mum worked in an Aboriginal organisation and I grew up working around Aboriginal organisations and learnt a lot from them. My mother nearly carried the whole Aboriginal community on her back- she was the Administrator of the Aboriginal Health Services for the first seventeen years of its existence. It came from nothing, a derelict house in Gertrude Street Fitzroy to the creation of a clinic that had doctors working voluntarily until they saw the enormity of the problem they were dealing with. Aborigines set up their own health services, because they were not being treated fairly in hospitals they would rather die in the streets than go to hospital. This was really happening. In the richest country in the world we had to start our own health services to look after Aboriginal people - who have the poorest health in the world.

I always asked my self why are they denying me and you the history of this country? This country's history didn't start two hundred years ago. This country has the oldest history in the world and the oldest laws. It was a magnificent country before Europeans arrived. We loved this land and looked after it and the creatures in it. This country is built on the ashes of our ancestors. There is a lot of information about this country overseas, places like for example, Saint Petersburg University in Russia. It has a million artifacts from south eastern Australia. In the olden days these people came here and wrote down all the information they could glean. An anthropologist, called Morgan, probably one of the most famous in the world, came here in the 1860's and from what he saw he wrote "What it is like to be a family," based on what he saw a normal family and community was. He based his study on these people.

There are artifacts in museums that were carved by my grandfather and things that specifically belong to my people, that we have never seen. They have held them and they don't want to give them to us because that would strengthen our people. We could do things with them- use them for ceremonial purposes- but they won't part with these things that were stolen from us in the first place.

Tribal Name is Djuran Bunjileenee. Djuran means running water, it was also the name of a boxer from Panama. I used to box as a kid and they used to call me Roberto Djuran. An old Aboriginal man gave me that name so it is sort of traditional. Bunjileenee was a chief from around here. He is reported to be the first death in custody in Australia. The native police chained him to a tree. In those days it was black man against black man. It was said Bunjileenee was holding a white woman up here in Gippsland. The woman was from a ship wreck and married Bunjileenne, before Victoria was even settled. The police used this white woman as an excuse to come here and kill us. Bunjileenee's children were there while he was chained to the tree. They were the first two of the first Stolen Children. One of them is buried in the Vatican. I was given the name Djuran Bunjileenee because I always said I would avenge Bunjileenee, one way or the other, but not with violence. If you look up old newspaper articles about what Aboriginal people were forced to put up with you would think you were in South Africa. It is really disgusting.

I was not initiated into my tribe, because by the time I grew up my tribe was all broken up, and weren't living as tribal people. Most of my people were living on Reserves and those sorts of things were forbidden. They were not allowed to practice any of their culture. Aboriginals were beaten with bull whips just for speaking their tribal language, all that culture had to cease, which was a really strong message that came across to the Aboriginal people. Not being initiated has affected me- it is something that I need. It is the going from childhood to adulthood, I would still be considered a child, even at the age of 40, because I haven't been through this process. It has affected us with our tribal people as we have never had that opportunity. Only after you do go through this process are you the real men and women of your tribe. Unfortunately we never got to do that even though we do want to. Our society was fractured and we are still in the process of putting it back together. One day we are going to re initiate our children, maybe not just our children but all the people of this land as they need to understand our laws and what is going on in this country. There are people in their sixties and seventies walking around this country today that are still considered children.

Captain Cook wrote that we were the most magnificent race of people he had ever seen. This was a result of strict laws where marriage was concerned. We were both fit in mind and body before white men arrived. The picture that is painted of us as being mad, no hopers, lazy, savage people who would eat you is the image most people get of Aborigines. This is not right, was never the real case, we were and still are very capable people. It will be a shame for this country if the Aborigines ever disappear. I can see where the Indigenous people have gone from, how the land has suffered as a result. Where there were once forests they have been logged or cleared for farming, the water has become contaminated, that usually means there are no Aborigines around to protect it or look after it.

No one knows the sacred songs that my people used to sing to the earth. The Stolen Generation has affected me through the stealing of my cousins. They all went through the institutionalisation process where they tried to change their minds about being Aboriginal. Because of my old man we were not stolen. In one way all Aboriginals are stolen because we have been taken from our mother earth. My sister has worked on a report, and I was forever saying to her this is a serious act, a criminal act. You can't steal someone's children. In fact it is an act of genocide, taking the children and not letting them have any family contact or learn the ways of their people, their history or their culture. This is what happened to Aborigines, not just one or two children were taken but a whole race of people were affected. If one Aboriginal person in our community is sick we have a sick community, if the whole community can't travel then no one can travel, that is the way we used to be- all together as an Aboriginal community.

On laws and customs I feel non Aboriginals are obligated to participate in our laws and customs. You cannot just walk into some one's country and not recognise the laws that are already in place, and replace them with you own. When white men came into our country they didn't take any notice of our laws, and that is what I believe is going wrong in this country. We are having a biological catastrophe and an environmental disaster in this country, and you need to know about it. You also need to know that when you go for a walk in the bush you may be entering a special women's area, or a sacred site, and if you are a young boy it could be dangerous for you. You could become sick and you could be killed. These things do happen, because people don't know the laws. This is not England and the laws of England, don't apply to this country. I don't mind anyone coming to this country as long as they live under the laws of it. That's just like anywhere else in the world. The laws are believed by Aboriginal people to have come from the Creator. They were given to us by God and we have never changed them. God created the land and we can't create anything better so we look after, love and worship God's creation- it is our Mother Earth.

I believe a long time ago Aboriginal and non Aboriginal people had the same laws, but things changed and they went more for man made law which is out of sync with the creators laws. I have great faith that one day Aboriginal people and white men will sit together and make laws for all of us. Racism - I don't believe is coming from the average person, it is systemic, which means the system is interested in maintaining this racism position. It is more the Government that is racist. I have never believed the Australian people are racist- they may be ignorant. They have never been taught or given the opportunity at school to learn about Aboriginal people. As a result they are ignorant, and ignorance creates racism. I don't blame the people on the ground level- I blame the system and the Government.

The Government is made up of people whose ancestors took this land in the first place. The squatters came in and took our land and they are the people who maintained the Government. Particularly today in Gippsland, the National Party has a strong hold, and if you look back in history you will see they are the ones who squatted the land, and exterminated the Aboriginal people, or tried to. I don't really point the finger at any individuals in terms of racism, I believe you don't really understand what the issues are about, so you might be ignorant. There are two types of racism, there's a person who is racist because they are ignorant, and there is a racist who just causes racism. The worse one being the racist. I don't really mind the ignorant ones because they can be taught, and then they may not be racist- they need that opportunity. I want to emphasise I don't see the people as being racist, it is the System that is racist and that includes the Legal system and the Education system. Schools have come a long way but they have a hell of a long way to go. They are really only scratching the surface on how to deal with racism in this country.

There has been no full-on attack on this issue. Some people from overseas are truly amazed at Australians' attitudes. I feel more comfortable walking down the street in a foreign country than I do in my own country, and that's sad. Deaths in custody- has touched me with the son of my cousin being killed in gaol. One week he was a happy go lucky kid, who may have had a few too many drinks and then he's dead. It is a real concern. I have been asking in the courts around this country, how come European, British or any one from overseas, has the right of law over Aboriginal people. How did they get that? Show me in the papers how white man is responsible for law over the Aboriginal people. I cannot understand how white men, who came here by force, invaded my land - then say they have the right of law over me. The laws of my elders have been in this land since the beginning of time. I have taken this to the Magistrates Court, the Hight Court and the Federal Court on the question of jurisdiction, and no one can give me an answer. I believe the legal system does not have the right to put us in gaol.

It is hard for me to believe that some of the Aborigines hung in gaol at their own hands. Aborigines believe if they kill themselves, their spirit will not enter the Dreamtime. Don't kill yourself is a rule for Aboriginal people. Unfortunately a lot of our kids growing up are not touched by their Aboriginal culture, they are not Aboriginal or white fella, they are nothing. They have got no self esteem, the police on pick them, it the systematic thing, and they feel like nothing. The fear that they put into you, and being thrown in with hardened criminals for minor offences is scary. We must remember that Australia was set up as a gaol, it was a penal colony to begin with. The early convicts that arrived here were hardened criminals, and these people were used as a weapon against Aboriginal people because they were diseased. The Government put a bounty on Aboriginal heads, convicts were given their freedom when they had an Aboriginal warrior's head. They wanted to clear us off and they used this force, the convicts slaughtered thousands of Aboriginals.

Kathy Freeman has raised reconciliation awareness. All Aboriginal people wanted Kathy to win gold at the Olympics, that was going to put us right up there. Reconciliation is not really suitable for our people- why don't we talk about a treaty? When you have a war with someone, a peace treaty is signed but we missed out on a peace treaty somehow. We want a treaty. A treaty is an International Law, that when one country is invaded by another they have to come up with a treaty. Australia hasn't got one so it is outside International Legal parameters, this is one of the reasons Australia argues with the United Nations so much- because they don't want them visiting here to see the condition of my people. They are saying we don't need your international law.

My sister is on the Reconciliation Council. Reconciliation is like a divide put in by the system, along with Native title, it is not the International form but the domestic, Australian form. It is not up to white men to determine what control Aboriginal people have in this country. I would more likely to say you fellas should be trying to claim native title. You should have to tell me why this land is so important to you and why you should be allowed to hold onto it, rather than ask Indigenous people, "where is your land." We know about this land, we were here first. What claim to native title do the white man have? We are challenging all the titles, because they haven't done this business properly, they have tried to move us out of the way and treat us like nothing. They have used Aborigines to fight against one another. My reconciliation role is called "Pay the Rent." It is getting non Aboriginal people to understand the history. They came here, stole our land, used our land and didn't pay any rent to the Aboriginal people. They took everything off us and we got nothing. Now, this is our home, and don't people get rent for using other people's homes? Isn't it a simple solution for all the problems? It means recognising us as human beings. Aboriginals have not been seen as real human beings. If people could over come that, they would then start thinking 'Hey, these people are human and they have rights, and should have compensation.' If you want to develop a relationship, show your good will, and legitimise your occupation of this land, you'll do it- you'll want to pay the rent.

The main problem is you don't want to recognise the fact that this is our country. The country is in denial, and they are creating a situation where all the kids are being taught lies about Aborigines. Aborigines have been made to get in line behind the "Australians" and not recognised as a people in their own right living in Australia. We are not "Aussies". The Government will not say "Sorry," because that will be admitting that they slaughtered our people, and will have to look after us and fix up the wrongs that have been done to us. The Government is greedy and selfish, it could learn a lesson from the indigenous people. The Aboriginal law is to share, and we must share everything.

On the Olympics - it was disturbing to see every other county in the world had their flag flying but there was no Aboriginal flag. Whose land are we on? The Aborigine's. If the same amount of money was given to Aborigines for sport, we would be able to come up with the goods, we've got the talent we can mix it with the black Americans. Just give us a chance, we've never been given the opportunity.